14-year-old jumps to his death after unaccompanied police interrogation for Molest

[CreditSuise]

Interesting views shared here

[FuLuSh0u]

Very interesting views shared here

[kuasimi]

Originally Posted by sadfa

Going to ask liao.

Questions like we know spf is the best. Pls confirm everything is done by the book or pls confirm Benjamins death nothing to do with you. Or are more policemen going to wear shorts when cycling?

15k not easy to earn ok.

[ComplainKing]

In this case is the suspect considered to be Juvenile or adult ?

[sadfa]

Originally Posted by ComplainKing

In this case is the suspect considered to be Juvenile or adult ?

No difference la. Fetus they'll oso take action.

[ComplainKing]

Originally Posted by sadfa

No difference la. Fetus they'll oso take action.

So if the suspect is convicted of molestation he will be sent to Changi village irregardless of his age ?

[kuasimi]

https://www.facebook.com/35875932751...type=3&theater


In other countries, we will hear a statement of commiseration and acceptance of responsibility from the minister in charge.

In Singapore, we can only hear the cricket.

[kuasimi]

Originally Posted by ComplainKing

In this case is the suspect considered to be Juvenile or adult ?

As per thread title, dead boy was a minor.

[kuasimi]

https://www.facebook.com/joohymn2015...23213291351276


The suicide of Benjamin Lim has been deeply troubling for me, and I’m sure many parents. Most of us can imagine our child being in a similar situation as Benjamin, which is why his suicide has hit so close to home.

The sequence of events, which are slowly being revealed, are cause for great concern. I think it reveals several deficiencies in policies, beliefs and assumptions.

“Anonymous neighbour”

I have not read anything further about who made the initial complaint. If anyone has more information, please do let me know.


1. Are there clear and sensible procedures for determining whether anonymous complaints are to be investigated? How did the police know this complainant was to be trusted? How did the complainant know about the molestation which took place in a lift?

2. The news report said the CCTV showed Benjamin getting into the lift with a girl, and the alleged molest happened in the lift. Was the CCTV footage considered sufficient evidence for interrogating him? Would it in all cases of molest and sexual assault?

3. What is the normal procedure for investigating sexual crimes? The alleged molest happened the day before, and police were already at Benjamin’s school before 11am the following day. Are all sexual assaults investigated with such speed and promptness? (That does not seem to be the experience of at least some women, from what I have heard anecdotally).

4. If the neighbour was indeed anonymous, this is a process potentially open to abuse. Someone with a grudge can make an anonymous phone call and complain of anything against anyone. Are there sufficiently robust procedures in place to ensure this does not happen?

Five police officers arrived at school

Really, honestly, five?! To arrest a 14-year-old boy? His home address and school are known, was there really a chance that he might escape? Or was it for dramatic effect, to scare the living daylights out of the boy? Surely a trip to the police station would have been enough to achieve this.

“Plainclothes” or otherwise (t-shirt with the word “Police” at the back), kids are not stupid. In fact, there are very astute. They would have taken one look at the situation and surmised that something very serious was going on. A boy in uniform escorted to the Principal’s office with a bun in one hand and a drink in the other, where five strange men were hanging around.

Stigma of sexual crime

We live in a society where sex is problematic, when you have it, how much, with whom etc. But at the same time, sex offenders are seen as being much worse than other kinds of criminal. Imagine how Benjamin must have felt, thinking that he would be known as a “色狼” (pervert) and that the school (ie. his teachers and friends) considered him so awful/dangerous that he was not allowed to attend camp the next day.

School not standing in way of the law

This is where our culture of complete obedience and trust in authority shows itself. Police personnel are humans, and sometimes, humans make mistakes. We don’t take this into account often enough.

We assume that the police are correct when they make arrests, and therefore, we assume that the person arrested should be interrogated, and that lawyers or other persons do not have to be present.

There are countless examples of miscarriages of justice the world over, where mistakes were made by police officers, coroners, judges etc, and innocent people were jailed for years, decades, or sometimes even sentenced to death.

This could also be where the proverb “宁可杀错，不可放过” (it’s better to wrongly kill an innocent, than to let a guilty party off) holds true. Our criminal system is stacked against the accused. In instances such as this, it becomes clear that some more protection is needed for those under investigation.

School not letting Benjamin attend camp

1. We are so accustomed to putting the family, community, organisation etc before the individual. Keeping a person charged with molestation away from a group of co-ed students is probably in the best interests of the girls.

It is definitely in the best interests of the school, because they cannot be accused of not having taken necessary precautions. But was it in the best interests of Benjamin, who was innocent till proven guilty. Could there have been other options? Or minimally, could the news have been conveyed to him in a gentler way?

2. This was not some ‘pai kia’ (bad) boy. If, as has been reported, he did very well in his uniformed group and even won an award, then were his teachers not surprised by his arrest?

If this was something out of character, did the school tell the police officers that? Could the counsellor have spent more time with him, or visited him after he was at home to convey the news to him in person and with some pastoral care thrown in?

3. Unfortunately, this is not the first instance of a school wanting to “cover backside” and protect its reputation. What is it in our system that encourages school administrators to think like that?

Could there be something wrong with our meritocratic system, where schools are ranked and reputation is incredibly important?

There have been calls for reviews, as well as calls for the individuals involved to be brought to account. I do not think that either will be effective in achieving long term change. There are so many things that are ingrained in our system, that are ingrained in our very being, that we need fundamental change from inside out.

Less judgment

To paraphrase what Ajahn Brahm once said in one of his talks, he has been to many prisons, but he has never met a single criminal. He has never met a single criminal in all the prisons he has been to. He has met plenty of people that committed a crime, but not a single criminal.

As I said, we are all human, and we are all fallible. So many times I have thought, there but for the grace of God go I. Many of us thought about doing things that were wrong, some of us tried, and a few of us got caught. We all make mistakes, some bigger than others. Let us all be more forgiving and understanding.

Respect

We group people and classify some of them as “others”, who are less than we are. Less intelligent, less able, less trustworthy etc. Sometimes, these “others” are of a different race, or religion, or socio-economic background.

Sometimes, they’re of a different age. We assume children (or elderly) to be less able than us. Would the police officers assume that if five of them marched into an office, and one man was escorted, by a manager, from the cafeteria, holding on to a bun, that the rest of his colleagues would assume nothing was wrong?

More questioning

Could we stop assuming that people in power generally do not make mistakes? Could we question their decisions more, especially where individual lives are affected?

Could we have a system where individual have more rights? The interests of the community, organisation etc could still be at the forefront, but there is room to increase the rights of the individual.

Expectations

Benjamin had a cold lunch, was escorted out of school by five police officers, brought to a police station, questioned for three hours without food, before his mother was allowed to bring him home, and informed that he could not attend camp the next day via a curt phone call. It is a lot for a 14-year-old to handle, and after the fact, it is obvious.


What do our children and workers go through daily that are hard for them to handle, but that we do not see? The amount of stress 12-year-olds have to go through: do homework from school, practise musical instrument/dance go prepare for performance/exams, train in sports to win at competition, have tuition to excel at exams, prepare DSA portfolio, prepare interview, excel at PSLE….

The stress the foreign workers go through: far away from home in a foreign land, with different language, different customs, different way of life, different way of working, different equipment/tools, different habits, no friends, cannot socialise, get scolded etc……


Can we learn to cut the people around us some slack and have more empathy for them? Can we lower our expectations a little?


Are we willing to have a situation where every school really is a good school, where the reputation of a school isn’t that important after all?

Can we all do something so that we do not read about another gut-wrenching incident?

Edit to include:
tl;dr: many mis-steps by many people, we are all responsible, shall we all do something to prevent such things from happening in future.
and corrected my proverb - thanks for pointing out the error.

[sadfa]

Originally Posted by ComplainKing

So if the suspect is convicted of molestation he will be sent to Changi village irregardless of his age ?

I think so. But for minor cases can put to boys home but don't think molest they'll let him go. Anyway boys home fucking worse, rape is a distinct possibility compared to jail.

But they not stupid they won't put him with adults.
He will b with kids around his age, which can be worse or if really no kids, which is unlikely, he will b alone, which can b lagi worse.

[kuasimi]

Originally Posted by countryman

Respect the law and be law abiding u won't have to go through being lock-up n TWICE some more! Goosh, seriously u should reflect on yourself instead of blaming the SPF! What treatment are u expecting to get? It is a police lock-up n not club med. U expect the policeman or policewoman to say nice consoling words to u ah! Spare a thought for the constables, u think it is so easy handling criminals in the lock-up everyday? They are also earning a decent living out there.
Please lah, grow up n wake up your ideas!

Tell that to Alex Ong. Getting lock up does not mean he did a crime or is a criminal.

Alex Ong if it is the same Alex Ong that pushed a senior citizen down a bus, has a medical condition that affects his social behaviour.

Dr Chee Soon Juan and JB Jeyaratnam was jailed before but they were never criminals because they got lock up for non-crime reasons.

But given your logic that school was right not to let dead boy go school camp just in case he will molest school girls in the school camp.

Then maybe USA President Bill Clinton should not be invited to Singapore in case he ask Singapore Civil Servants assigned to him to do blowjobs for him like intern Monica Lewinsky.

Then maybe Minister Shammugam should not remarry since his wife divorce him before.

Then maybe Singapore should not allow sports cars on the roads in case there is another accident like the red Ferrari crashing into a taxi.

Then maybe....It is endless.

Please remember dead boy was only a suspect assisting police investigations. He was not charge yet or pronounced guilty yet under Singapore's Legal Process.

The school should not have pre-judged the dead boy and played too safe for the school camp.

The Kiasi and Kiasu Syndrome are in the schools, how not for Singaporeans to be Kiasi and Kiasu too?

[sadfa]

Originally Posted by kuasimi

[IMG]https://scontent-sin1-1.xx.fbcdn.


[url]https://www.facebook.com/358759327518739/photos/a.360220640705941.85354.358759327518739/1034420696619262/?t


In other countries, we will hear a statement of commiseration and acceptance of responsibility from the minister in charge.

In Singapore, we can only hear the cricket.

No la.

In any real country, even if they have nothing to say, the minister or president will come out n say something like stay calm, some motherhood statement of all children are protected etc.

They won't keep quiet, hide n let civil servants issue statements. This shows the cowardice, uncertainty n cluelessness of these leaders which the press n media will condemn.

So It's very very disturbing these ministers can keep quiet. And really shows how fucked up spore is.

The police n school must b damn worried cos if ministers keep on keeping quiet, it means they can come out anytime to back stab the police n school after gauging public sentiments.

And i won't b surprised if some jackass minister wanted to come out n say come on! Benjamin deserved it. Just say it in public la n he was told off by others - you diam diam better. Understand.

[kuasimi]

Originally Posted by kuasimi

https://www.facebook.com/joohymn2015...23213291351276


The suicide of Benjamin Lim has been deeply troubling for me, and I’m sure many parents. Most of us can imagine our child being in a similar situation as Benjamin, which is why his suicide has hit so close to home.

The sequence of events, which are slowly being revealed, are cause for great concern. I think it reveals several deficiencies in policies, beliefs and assumptions.

“Anonymous neighbour”

I have not read anything further about who made the initial complaint. If anyone has more information, please do let me know.


1. Are there clear and sensible procedures for determining whether anonymous complaints are to be investigated? How did the police know this complainant was to be trusted? How did the complainant know about the molestation which took place in a lift?

2. The news report said the CCTV showed Benjamin getting into the lift with a girl, and the alleged molest happened in the lift. Was the CCTV footage considered sufficient evidence for interrogating him? Would it in all cases of molest and sexual assault?

3. What is the normal procedure for investigating sexual crimes? The alleged molest happened the day before, and police were already at Benjamin’s school before 11am the following day. Are all sexual assaults investigated with such speed and promptness? (That does not seem to be the experience of at least some women, from what I have heard anecdotally).


Edit to include:
tl;dr: many mis-steps by many people, we are all responsible, shall we all do something to prevent such things from happening in future.
and corrected my proverb - thanks for pointing out the error.

I wonder given the amazing speed SPF operated for this dead boy's case, could the 11 year old victim and anonymous neighbour be related or friends to one or all of the 5 Policemen?

This would maybe make the 5 Policemen more rash on the head when interrogating dead boy.

It is like somebody you know ask for help or rescue, then you bring down your brothers to help or rescue.



How long does police take to come ar?


http://forums.$$$$$$$$$$$$.com.sg/ea...r-5297799.html

[Wende11a]

Originally Posted by kuasimi

I wonder given the amazing speed SPF operated for this dead boy's case, could the 11 year old victim and anonymous neighbour be related or friends to one or all of the 5 Policemen?

This would maybe make the 5 Policemen more rash on the head when interrogating dead boy.

It is like somebody you know ask for help or rescue, then you bring down your brothers to help or rescue.



How long does police take to come ar?


http://forums.$$$$$$$$$$$$.com.sg/ea...r-5297799.html

Thank you for sharing your point of views.

[Wendy11a]

Originally Posted by kuasimi

I wonder given the amazing speed SPF operated for this dead boy's case, could the 11 year old victim and anonymous neighbour be related or friends to one or all of the 5 Policemen?

This would maybe make the 5 Policemen more rash on the head when interrogating dead boy.

It is like somebody you know ask for help or rescue, then you bring down your brothers to help or rescue.



How long does police take to come ar?


http://forums.$$$$$$$$$$$$.com.sg/ea...r-5297799.html

Thank you for sharing you views